What is insider risk, and how can it be detected? In this episode, we hear from a fraud and forensic investigations expert who spent 25 years in the FBI on what motivates insiders to act nefariously and red flags to look out for.
What is insider risk, and how can it be detected? In this episode, Simon is joined by Dave Burroughs, a fraud and forensic investigations expert who spent 25 years in the FBI and continues to offer his expertise in fraud as a Partner at Stoneturn, a global professional services firm. They discuss all things insider risk: what it is, the motivations behind it, and the red flags to look out for.
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“Insider risk has a lot of definitions, but, generally speaking, it's really anyone (that could be an employee, a subcontractor, a fellow, a partner of the organization) who has access to information and or assets and maliciously or unwittingly exploits that access and basically exposes those assets.”
“[Company culture] is a key factor. Your technology is only going to take you so far.”
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Time stamps:
(01:37) What is insider risk?
(04:12) What motivates insiders to act nefariously?
(07:06) How company culture impacts insider risk
(08:31) Red flags to look out for
(12:32) What role does technology pay?
(16:06) Surprises and lessons from Dave’s time in the FBI
(21:10) The most interesting fraud case Dave has worked on
(24:14) The longest case he’s worked on
(26:33) How will the fraud landscape change in the next few years?
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Dave Burroughs on LinkedIn
Simon Horswell on LinkedIn
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Simon: [00:00:00] In this episode, I am joined by David Burrows, a partner at Stoneturn, a global professional services firm that provides expertise with forensics and investigation, risk and compliance, data and technology, economic and dispute advisory, and strategic business consulting. David brings over 30 years of law enforcement, public and private sector experience in fraud and forensic investigations.
security threat and risk assessments, compliant and risk management, and monitorship. He's also a 25 year veteran of the Federal Bureau of Investigations. So in today's episode, we dive into insider risk. What it is, what are the motivations behind it, and what are the red flags to look out for. But first, a word from our sponsor.
Voice over: Inside the Fraud Lab [00:01:00] is brought to you by Onfido. Onfido's real identity platform is trusted by thousands of businesses to stop fraud and know their customers. Their AI powered identity verification means businesses can securely and seamlessly onboard customers anytime, anywhere.
Simon: Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Simon Horswell and David, thank you for being with me today.
Dave: My pleasure, Simon.
Simon: Shall we kick things off? I think the first thing we should do, we've, we've said we're going to talk about insider risk. This might be a new term for people who are listening, so let's define some of those terms. What do we mean by insider risk?
And maybe we can have a couple of real world examples.
Dave: Sure, I mean insider risk is, has a lot of definitions, but you know generally speaking it's really anyone, and that could be an employee, a partner of the organization, who has access to Information and or assets and maliciously or [00:02:00] unwittingly exploits that access and basically expose those assets.
Simon: So someone inside the circle of trust as it were?
Dave: Yes, yes, and they sort of break down insiders as into two categories. You know, I mentioned maliciously and an example of that recently last year for there was a an individual in the air force who a very young Like 22, I believe, year old individual, probably was the equivalent, I think he was an airman, but his rank was equivalent to that of a private in the army, and he had allegedly exposed hundreds of documents, of top secret documents to friends of his in a gaming group, and one of those friends then I think, shared those documents on another server and they became public and creating a very serious security risk to the country.
So, you know, in that kind of situation, you know, he was considered a malicious insider. He took this [00:03:00] information, disseminated it, and knowing For well, the consequences that may result from that. And an unwitting insider is someone who doesn't intentionally create damage or harm. And, you know, the probably the most common example we can all relate to would be an individual who inadvertently clicks on a phishing link, believing it to be legitimate, right, you know, enters certain credentials, and then all of a sudden exposes the network.
So they're sort of, they still pose a risk, but it's not something that was intentional.
Simon: Right, I suppose kind of like the, maybe it sits somewhere in between these two, but, so you've got your, your nefarious, you've got your unmalicious, what about someone who's subject to some form of coercion, like blackmail or extortion?
Dave: Yeah, I think in, in those situations, there's still, they may be, resistant, but they're in a position in which, you know, they may be, if they don't have a [00:04:00] situation where they feel there's an outlet for them to report this or to seek help, you know, they in a sense become a malicious insider.
Simon: Because of the intent, they're doing it knowingly as opposed to unknowingly.
Dave: Correct.
Simon: Okay, so what kind of things would motivate an insider to act in this way? What are the kind of motivations behind it?
Dave: They're sort of generalized into several categories. You know, one is psychological, you know, and by that I mean, you know, individual can be angry, depressed, you know, there's some emotion fueling, fueling the, it could even be, uh, something as simple as they feel slighted because they didn't get a promotion.
You know, something along those lines. One of the big ones is financial. You know, an individual may be experiencing debt. You know, from, could be a medical family illness situation. It could be due to various addictions, whether it be substance abuse or perhaps gambling. You know, those types of [00:05:00] things that they incur, incur problems.
Living beyond one's means is one that gets a lot of people into trouble. And then there's, you know, good old fashioned greed.
Simon: Just wanting to get a little bit more in the pot. Exactly. Um, and I think, you know, they're all quite timely, but, uh, I think more and more. Given the current climate, we're likely to see the last one you mentioned, probably.
Dave: And on top of the financial, you know, there's relational, which you just kind of alluded to earlier. You know, in which, you know, you're approached by colleagues and they either sell you on the idea to participate or they Do something to compel you to do it, you know, whether it be through physical violence, whatever the threat may be, and so they can sort of create a situation where the person feels they have no choice but to comply.
And then there's situational, and that's usually where you have, I think, in many respects during COVID, that increased a little bit because you're working remote, you know, the situation [00:06:00] is you're by yourself, you're isolated, and you know, there's a less likelihood. Potentially you're gonna, you're gonna be caught by a colleague, you know, maybe there's controls in place, but you're sort of, sort of on your own.
Also ideological, where you may have is a strong belief, say, The company you work for is, in your opinion, you know, dumping evil or pollutants into the river or something, you may feel that, uh, you know, an insider, it's not just threat, excuse me, it's not just embezzlement or things like that, it could also be sabotage, you know, to stop what's going on or to cause reputational harm.
In order to, you know, slow down or change what they feel is, you know, improper. And then, and then last is environmental, at least in the categories we're talking about here, you know, which by that we mean, you know, poor controls, a poor culture, you know, in the organization can serve to motivate individuals who feel that, you know, even if they do something and try to [00:07:00] commit some type of act that there's less than a likelihood that their colleagues are going to report.
Simon: Right. So. Company culture sort of comes into this as well, then?
Dave: Oh, it's a, I think it's a, it's a key factor. You know, your technology is only going to take you so far.
Simon: Yeah, but so keep, keep your employees happy, if you had no other reason, you know.
Dave: Well, that's a tough challenge, but I think to, to make employees feel, I think to make them feel valued, that their voice can be heard, and that, They want, I think in a good culture and a culture which you create, you know, we sometimes it's referred to as a speak up culture where people feel comfortable or safe to report things that, that concern them without fear of retaliation or consequence.
I think those types of things serve as a huge deterrent because if I, if an individual is in working in an environment where everybody. You know, is sort of rowing in the same direction and, you know, they want to succeed, they want their [00:08:00] company to succeed and they're, they're happy in their workplace, you know, they're going to say, Hey, I, I'm concerned about something I saw and it may be innocent, but I just think I should bring it to your attention.
Whereas if employees either aren't happy or they don't feel that the management, the one, the one responsibility on management in that regard in particular is to follow up on those. Reports, because if I've been in environments where people don't report because they're not going to do anything, so why should I waste their time?
Simon: Complacency. Yeah. Well, I mean, that does kind of lead on to the next area I wanted to discuss as well. So it's, I mean, we're talking about effectively whistleblowing as being one way that these people, these insiders get caught. What are some of the other ways that they get caught? I mean, what are the, what are some of the red flags that we should keep an eye out for?
Dave: Yeah, there's, you know, red flags are usually most apparent in hindsight, you know, although they're there. But I mean, afterwards, [00:09:00] we all look at ourselves, whether it's the signs were there. Yes. How did they miss this? You know, that kind of thing. But, but in the, in the moment, sometimes they're overlooked for a variety of reasons, but certain things and some of them almost sound similar to the, to the motivations.
But I think one of the big ones is sort of personality changes. Where you see the demeanor of an employee changes, they all of a sudden they're antisocial with colleagues or their interaction changes, their performance may plummet, their financial habits may change. You know,
Simon: they suddenly drive into work in a sports car.
Dave: Yes, we talked about performance of financial habits, but oddly, you know, we've had situations I've encountered in the past where someone, you know, said, never wanted to take a vacation, you know, and that was because of the fear of. You know, if they were away, what they were doing might be discovered. So, you know, your most loyal employee all of a sudden is, you know, is not.
And sometimes the, [00:10:00] the employee is always the first one in last one out. Now that could be a very loyal and hardworking employee. It doesn't mean they're, they're a malicious insider, but it's something that, is there a reason, you know, besides just working hard, you know, that that context is going on.
Sudden interest in a work area other than their own. Sort of all of a sudden, why are you over on this side kind of a thing? It could be an indication where they're trying, there's something there that they're seeking or trying to get access to. The cautionary statement I wanted to make is, you know, you know, red flags can be, can be strong indicators, but you know, We're, we are all human beings and we all go through things in life that impact us and so, you know, don't, you know, people cannot be quick to assess and point a finger just because certain characteristics are popping up.
There's more of a totality of circumstances that before you start, you know, accusing people of doing something wrong just because they're going through a difficult time.
Simon: Exactly. It's so these, these flags in and of themselves aren't [00:11:00] necessarily. evidence that something's going on. Right. But they're potentially a clue if you become aware that something is going on.
Dave: Yes.
Simon: I mean, they, they, we're not saying that anyone should just ignore them, put them down to human behavior. It means to start to monitor the situation in a professional manner a bit more closely.
Dave: Yes, and I think, you know, earlier, you know, we talked about sort of the cultural aspect. If there's strong relationships, people are more inclined to sort of say, you know, What's going on in their life, or at some point share it, and then you can sort of support them.
Simon: Okay, so basically, you recommend going out for a drink with colleagues, possibly on the company's expense, because ultimately it's going to stop insiders.
Dave: Well, and drinks don't always have to be alcoholic, so yes.
Simon: Yeah, a lot of what we've just talked about there is, Us as humans keeping our eyes on the prize, as it were, watching out for each other, watching out for any changes, which we should all be doing as part of [00:12:00] a cohesive team anyway, because it could be an indication that something else is going on in someone's private life and not just insider threat.
So these are kind of just general flags to keep an eye out for. Oh yeah. But what about the role that technology has to play in both? Well, not just in creating the opportunities for insiders, but also I think, Given all the press that we see around AI at the moment, and, and the, I keep saying it, but it's like a demonization of AI, it's very easy to overlook the good that it does as well.
So, what's maybe some of the role that technology can play in helping to protect or mitigate the risk inside a threat?
Dave: Yeah, no, it's a great question, and fortunately, you know, I'm part of a, A multiple disciplinary firm where, you know, the investigations group can work with the cyber group and, you know, we all work and the computer forensics.
So we all work collaboratively. So I certainly have colleagues who can speak much more intelligently on this [00:13:00] topic, but I can say basically some mitigating factors are, you know, like security tooling and expanded logging are becoming more common. There's EDR and point detection. response, which are tools that help figure out sort of what happened to the, in the individual system.
If the files are still actively on the device, what USB devices were connected, you know, so it's sort of captures that activity. One of the other areas that sort of along those lines is the security information management system or SIM platforms, you know, which help correlate activity across the systems and log formats.
So that's another sort of. centralizing factor, I guess, to detect or flag certain things.
Simon: So we're talking about monitoring now, and I suppose at the same time, given the descriptions that we've already talked about, where you've got your unmalicious, Then, obviously, a very basic [00:14:00] level, a good spam filter would be quite handy.
But what maybe are some of the, maybe some of the, the, the key parts that technology plays in creating more opportunities for insiders as well?
Dave: Yeah, I mean, there's, and some of them, as you just pointed out, aren't all malicious. You know, for example, The use of a CHAT GBT, there was a, an article written recently regarding, I think, doctors were using CHAT GBT to help organize their notes and their reporting, and what they didn't realize was that in doing so, It exposed confidential data in violation of the HIPAA laws, because once it goes out on the AI servers, you know, Then anyone can access it.
Yeah, so it was, it was problematic.
Simon: And they, they do put a disclaimer for that to be fair.
Dave: Yes. Yeah, now it's out there, but that's the, the risk is, is, is, Individuals using, you know, new technology when perhaps they maybe have not been [00:15:00] educated fully in the potential pitfalls and consequences.
Simon: Okay.
Any other opportunities it creates?
So maybe we've, we've talked about the unmalicious. The accidental, if you will, but maybe, are there any opportunities it potentially creates for the malicious insider?
Dave: With generative AI, for example, in addition to sort of the risk of accidental exposure, you could have employees trying to use it to subvert security controls, such as, you know, although AI, you know, they try to make an effort to, there's security protocols in there, so that if you ask, how do I rob a bank, you know, it's, how Hopefully not going to give you a response, but you can sort of reword questions, you know, so there's a way they can subvert, you know, might be able to subvert security protocols, you know, using it.
Simon: Okay, we won't advertise any of those. I'm aware of a few of those as well. I think what I'd like to talk about as well, it's, you know, it's not often you get to talk to somebody who used to work in the FBI, [00:16:00] and when you do, you know, it's, I've got loads and loads of questions, but I'm going to keep it nice and Straightforward.
So, what were some of the biggest surprises from your time at the FBI, and maybe some of the biggest lessons that you learned from that?
Dave: Yeah, it's a hard question, because there, you know, there, I would say there's a lot of them, and some I probably don't even, you know, that don't come to mind right away.
But I think, you know, one of the things that just always sort of surprised or just kind of caused me to scratch my head was just how, how many people who are so gifted and incredibly intelligent would choose to use that gift, if you will, to try and defraud or, you know, Not to get corny, but use their powers for evil, when they probably would have had an incredibly successful career in the private sector or whatever path they chose, but they choose to, you know, to, to [00:17:00] use it to beat the system.
I just felt it was, it was a sad choice that they made. If that makes sense.
Simon: Right, I mean, we could philosophically argue that everything is ultimately your own choice, but maybe it's more the opportunities that were presented to them at the different times, right? So, if they'd met a different person, or gone to a different school, or they'd had a manager that Talk to them a bit differently then they may well have gone down that more positive route and been more and more of a commercial success.
Let's say, whereas if you're kind of backed into a corner, sometimes you'll do whatever you have to do to survive or you will take the easiest route is quite often the other one. So it's yeah, I get what you mean. It's always shocking when you sort of see someone so talented or such a brilliant mind used for something more nefarious.
It's um, yeah.
Dave: Yeah, and then you sort of asked sort of the biggest lesson I learned and I, I, I think for me [00:18:00] was really, and fortunately for me, because I, I feel I'm sort of, I am this way that the, the role that compassion plays in dealing with people. At various points in their lives, and that could be anyone from the victim of a crime to the perpetrator, and I have found that while I was an FBI agent and then retired and in the private sector, that being able to talk to someone and empathize.
With them, sort of regardless of the circumstances and not doing so in judgment is probably for me one of the most sort of impactful ways to relate to people. And I think that translates into how I, how I interact with. Whether it's clients or individuals, you know, insiders or individuals who were breaking the law that we're investigating.
It really has sort of just been tremendously impactful to my life and I think to my, I'd like to say to [00:19:00] my success without being boastful.
Simon: Well yeah, I can imagine it's um, it's very easy to say it but it's a lot harder to actually do it. Do it, as you say, in certain circumstances, keeping that compassion and still seeing the person as a person, instead of, you know, the villain of the piece, is, that takes a lot of self control.
Dave: Yeah, I mean, I, I think, fortunately for me, it's just The way I was sort of wired, you know, the way my parents raised me. So it wasn't as, it's not as, for me, it's not a self control issue. It's really just a, a, it just said how I operate, you know, and, uh, I can, as a, as a quick example, you know, I, I did a white collar for about seven years and then I worked violent street gangs for about eight years and.
I remember very vividly one, one arrest that was made. I was sitting with an individual who was believed to have committed a few homicides and I was talking to him and, [00:20:00] you know, he stopped and he just said, you know, that I was the first, well, he said the first cop. You know, that ever treated him like a human being and with respect and, you know, and I just said, well, I have no reason not to, you know, I'm, I'm not the judge of what you've done.
I said, you know, we'll see what happens with that. But as long as you treat me with respect while we're, we're together, you know, um, that's how I operate. And yeah, he ended up going to trial and lost a trial. But every morning we said hello and. It was people around us couldn't understand why, you know, they felt that I was being too nice to them.
But yeah,
Simon: no, but it's more effective. That's, that's the point. You see this time again, it's, you know, it's particularly when someone's already in custody, right? That's, yeah. At that point, it's okay to just treat them like a human being. It's like, well, what's going to happen is going to happen, you know?
Dave: Yeah. Usually it's still pretty adversarial at that point, depending on the circumstances, but that was something for me was very powerful.
Simon: Yeah, no, I can see, I can see why. [00:21:00] So. One question I've always kind of, you know, asked someone in your position is probably, what was the most interesting or elaborate fraud case that you were a part of?
Dave: Yeah, I've been thinking about this. There's, you know, there's several. I, as far as fraud, you know, sort of going along the lines of insider, you know, I had one interesting case in which involved A series of car salesmen, it involved some various auto sales facilities and what happened was there were certain individuals inside who were stealing vehicle identification number information off their computers and then they were using that In an organized fashion with I think a group of about total 15 individuals involved in this scenario in which they were using that information to negotiate rebate checks that were being offered for the purchase of new vehicles, so they were stealing [00:22:00] division of motor vehicle records, you know, In order to complete the rebate checks, and then they would disseminate the rebate checks throughout sort of the New York City area, Staten Island, and things like that, and so you had insiders at the dealerships, then you had individuals on the outside distributing and negotiating the checks, and it was a very interesting thing.
Investigation, which eventually many of the individuals, I think we arrested about 15 to 16 individuals, and if I remember correctly, and several went to trial and were all found guilty of trial. So it was, it was a very, it was very interesting, you know, as far as an insider standpoint. And I also had another case in which there was an individual who was working inside a major U.
S. bank and there was a control issue and they tested the system by submitting a bill payment. Their own, uh, bill for a, [00:23:00] uh, household, sort of a household utility. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, it went through, wasn't flagged. And so they did it again, sort of testing the system, you know, always, you could always say, Oh, I made a mistake.
And then, and then just, it was off to the races and they ended up embezzling between three and 4 million. And over how long a period of time? I believe it was less than a year. If I remember correctly, and bought a lot of automobiles, homes, you know, uh, a lot of nice things, and I don't know if the individual was never clear to me if the individual inadvertently made that first payment, submission, or or if it's something they'd thought about and just said, I bet you they won't.
Yeah, I'll test it and I can always fall back on it was a mistake, but it was one of those things that quickly pointed out the vulnerability and the lack of control, which, you know, the bank immediately remedied and the bank worked with us very closely to resolve the issue. [00:24:00] But it was pretty interesting.
Simon: So, I mean, there's a couple of those red flags there, slight change in behavior, certainly a lot more finances being spent on it.
Dave: Living well beyond their means, yes. Yeah,
Simon: brilliant. Um, okay, uh, what would have been the longest case you've worked on?
Dave: Yeah, and this case, I played a very minor role and wasn't even involved with it at the beginning, but it was a very highly publicized FBI investigation that I think was from, I think culminated in 2011, and it was called Ghost Stories, and this, this case was probably about the ultimate insiders.
They were Russian operatives that came over into the U. S. and blended in to society in different ways. Roles, some had family here, had children here and were living among us, so to speak, similar to the, with a lot less drama, but similar to the Americans.
Simon: I was going to say, [00:25:00] it's like the TV show, The Americans.
Dave: Yeah, not, not quite as exciting as that, but they did pose, pose a risk and it was really an, a 10 year investigation that the FBI had into these individuals between identifying them. And like I said, I don't, Begin to take credit for, for that it was done by our, you know, counterintelligence squads that focus on it and our special operations squads and surveillance squads, you know, there was just a massive effort and other agencies involved, but I had the benefit of sort of coming in on the last couple of years and supporting it through technical means.
And so it was fascinating and eventually these individuals were arrested and ultimately. They were exchanged for Americans who were, yeah, and they did sort of, that was done at the airport. It was kind of a dramatic handoff. But I would say that, you know, knowing the complexities of that investigation and just some of the things that we dealt with from a [00:26:00] technical perspective, it was, It was sort of fascinating and it's, it's one of those things that I think as a society, you know, you, you think the cold war is, is dead and all that kind of stuff.
And yet here we have right in our own neighborhoods.
Simon: It's more just lukewarm now, you know, it's just,
Dave: I don't have access to that information anymore. I don't know.
Simon: It's not so much cold, it's just, you know, room temperature.
One of the last questions I like to ask people is, how do you see. The fraud landscape changing in the next few years, say the next year, the next five years.
What do you think are going to be some of the major changes? What are we going to see happen?
Dave: Well, I think, you know, with the advance of AI, you know, and chat GBT, I think you have the technological advancements, you know, as we know, as soon as new technology is vented, you know, it's almost how we, it wasn't intentional, but how I [00:27:00] started this, as far as when you asked me one of the things that was sort of the Most surprising or something that I learned in the FBI was the issue of how individuals who are so talented, you know, choose to, choose to try and defeat the system of whatever, you know, and I think that as this technology advances, you know, so will the sophistication of the individuals.
So it's, I think it's really going to be interesting as everything becomes more digital, but, you know, at the same time, I still think there's going to be. There has to be a human factor, you know, at some point as these different advancements occur, you know, all of a sudden we're getting to a point now where if you do get a phone call from your bank, you don't believe it.
You know, you don't know what to believe. So, you know, you need to hang up, you need to have a human interaction with someone that you know is at your bank, you know, and you can't call the number back that they called from. You've got to look it up online and, you know, go through that way. So a [00:28:00] trusted source.
Yeah. So I, I, I see sort of a, a, uh, A situation where, you know, not everyone is, is so technologically proficient, you know, that they are going to advance with this. But I think that it's, there's always going to be a human element to it. But I, as far as crystal balling it, I, I don't know, I don't have a full appreciation yet of just how advanced.
I don't know what chatGBT and AI is going to get, but I'm fortunate, you know, as I alluded to earlier, to have some individuals, uh, many individuals in the firm who work in that specific area that, uh, I can rely on to tell me, all right, what's going on?
Simon: Well, I think that's, that's one of the things for me.
It's, it's, it's this idea of people taking something that's out there, which, Is just a tool, but using it in ways that hasn't originally been envisaged. And that's, that's, that's what we see with any of these scams. It's like you take a, you take a particular piece of technology, you start using it in a way that no [00:29:00] one really thought you would use it, and that's how you start to leverage that advantage.
Or you look at a system. And, you know, just a series of processes, and then you say, right, okay, well, that creates these loopholes, and that's where my advantage is. So I think it's, that's, that's where the human element is, right? That's, that's the whole point. You know, you, just, just gaming the system is very much the human aspect of all fraud.
It's, um, yeah.
Dave: Well, and some of it, you know, it always, it's not always financial. Some of it is just to the thrill of, you know, Of beating it or defeating it. Some people get a high of just, you know, navigating and defeating it and saying, what's next? I'm smarter than you.
Simon: Yeah, exactly.
Brilliant. David, thank you so much for your time with us today.
I really appreciate it. It's been fascinating to listen to. Really enjoyed it. Where can listeners find you online to learn more about you and your work in Stone Turn?
Dave: Sure. Yeah. And they can reach our firm, which is at www. stoneturn. [00:30:00] com. Stone turn is one word. Or on LinkedIn. We have a pretty strong presence on LinkedIn, and I believe we have a newsletter that they could subscribe to.
And we also, there's a lot of thought leadership that's offered by Darius.
Simon: Yeah, I've been reading your articles. I've enjoyed them very much.
Dave: Oh, thank you. I also, we're collaborative, so I have help as well.
Simon: Looks off camera.
Dave: Giving some kudos. Yeah. Yes. You know, I mentioned the culture, but also we don't compete against each other.
We sort of all work together. I'm very fortunate. Great,
Simon: David. Thank you so much. Thank you. Really.
Dave: Thank you, Simon. It was a pleasure.
Simon: Thank you for joining us on this journey inside the Fraud Lab. If you'd like more insights into attack patterns and trends as we see them at Onfido, head to onfido. com or click the link in the show notes to access our annual identity fraud report.
It's full of proprietary research into how fraudsters are attacking identity verification and how the world of prevention is [00:31:00] changing. It's full of insights. For example, financial services has seen a 23 percent increase in fraud versus last year, and 46 percent of document fraud targets national ID cards.
If you'd like to learn more, get your free copy by clicking the link in the show notes. Goodbye for now, and I hope you join us again next time.